SW: The Old Republic

[cabby]

Maybe I misunderstood what you were originally trying to say kinsten. You started with:

I played the weekend Beta, and had higher expectation, not calling it a WoW clone is an understatement. A lot of the gameplay, interface and basic concept is borrowed a lot from WoW.

Then went on about hoping it crashed and burned and how you were disappointed with it.

This (when looking at the 2nd sentence in that quote) gave me the impression that you were trying to call it a WoW clone and thus lead to me trying to point out that WoW itself was a clone. And you know the rest from there.

[kinsten]

Maybe I misunderstood what you were originally trying to say kinsten.

That right you did.

[kinsten]

Then came EQ which popularized MMORPGs and allowed titles like WoW to actually have a market today. Right now the only benchmarks WoW is setting are how easy they can make game play be (thus lowering the IQ of millions of people at once) and how many subscribers they can lose in a year's time.

This probably the most grossly inaccurate statement that I have seen from you btw. To be honest reading this lowered my IQ... and I tried resisting from making a respond.

Can you show me your PVP and PVE raiding achievements and then tell me if the game is too easy for you.

You really think EQ 400-500k customer really paved the way to 11 million subs? you mention EQ to anyone back then and now and they will likely say Ever What?

And what does how many subscribers loss have anything to do with it? losing 10% of your subscribers can and will happen to any company that have reached their peaked.

What bothers me is that you seem to hate wow for dumbing the game down yet you're still here in a WoW forum doing mod and tech support for free.

Who has lost the most IQ? the person who loves WoW and playing it.

or the person who hates WoW and doing free tech support for it.

[Cartman]

Kinsten, you overestimate the majority WoW players.
Most things in WoW simply require to spend a lot of time in the game, not that you need to be skilled in any way.
The only thing that really requires skill is PVP.
I personally don't raid as I don't have the time for that. But friends joined a bigger guild and I see what goes on. Grinding for Valor points, getting reputation and crafting and you're ready for raiding. I know their skills and see their progress. So it can't be that difficult

I play all 10 classes and therefore I am not a pro with any. And still I rush through the leveling phase and in WotLK I even did dungeons with quite some classes without having any problems. And the game has become even easier with Cataclysm.

And about the race selection you mention. For about 60% of all WoW players Humans, Undead and Elves are the coolest races. No need for any game to make more races available or races that are different from Humans...
Just look at all those flameposts against the Pandaren.

I still like WoW, I have fun again playing the different classes. But If I want a challenge I play other games.

[daeymien]

The only thing that really requires skill is PVP.

I wouldn't even go general. Arena requires skill. The rest of PVP in WoW is: faceroll til you're dead, bitch at healer/tank, repeat til one side wins or gives up.

[Kamchak]

EDIT: Removed my involvement with kinsten and his/her rudeness to Cabby. Ill save my dog for another day.

[cabby]

Kinsten, have you ever truly played a game that required thought on how to kill a normal creature out in the wild, not some heroic boss? Have you ever had to worry that if you die you might lose a level and lose spells/abilities? Have you ever not had some kind of indicator over the top of an NPC's head to tell you he has a quest or to turn in a quest with him? Have you ever played an MMORPG that doesn't have a quest journal and you had to keep notes on your own for the quests you managed to find? Have you ever played an MMORPG that doesn't have any in game maps? Have you ever spent 45 minutes running from one end of a continent to the other, then wait 30 minutes to take a boat to the next continent all the while praying to whatever god you want that you don't run into anything higher than 5 levels below you because you knew if you did you'd die and have to start the run all over again. Have you ever died in game and had to run naked all the way back to where you died hoping against hope that the creature that killed you was gone so you could get all your gear again? Have you ever played a game that would take 3 days just to get to level 35?

As I said, WoW is only good at one thing, making game play too easy. Anyone can log into WoW, faceroll their character up to 85 in a matter of days, and never have to think about what they did during that time or why. By making gaming this easy they are not forcing people to use their brains thereby lowering the IQ of those people. There is no real challenge to the game other than the previously mentioned minor PvP challenge.

PvP and PvE raiding achievements mean absolutely nothing in the context of how easy the game play is. PvP only shows how well your character is equipped compared to someone else these days, and I don't normally PvP or play WoW that much anymore for that matter. PvE raiding stuff, well anyone can get be drug along on raids to get those without doing a damn thing and once again the raids rely on your gear and not your actual skill or intellect.

And yes, the 400-500k subscribers did pave the way in the MMORPG industry to show all the other companies that it was a viable way to make money and allowed companies to decide to create other MMORPGs such as WoW. And anyone who ever played EQ will never forget how difficult it was, their first character, their first raid, etc. You can ask any old EQ player and they'll definitely remember EQ and wouldn't say EverWhat. You're either grasping at straws with that comment in an attempt to make some kind of point or you've never actually played EQ.

For how many subscribers they lost, I was just pointing out the benchmark they were setting. Name one other game that has lost 2 million subscribers in a year. Oh, and that 2 million subscribers was actually a 17% loss of customers. But let's look at this by the numbers. Let's say EQ had 450k subscribers compared to WoW at it's 12m. Now if EQ lost 17% that would be 76.5k lost and a revenue loss of $1,147,500 per month ($15/month subscription). For WoW at that same subscription price it's $30m per month lost. So maybe you'd prefer that instead of saying they're setting a benchmark on how many subscribers they can lose in a year I should say they're setting a benchmark on how much profit they can lose in a year? And I'm sure we all know that they'll continue to lose customers the easier they make the game play.

Now I don't hate WoW for dumbing down their game. Blizzard is free to do whatever they want with their product even if they are slowly shooting themselves in the foot in the process. My feelings for the path WoW is traveling has nothing to do with my support for Zygor and his guides.

And I'm not doing free tech support so I guess I haven't lost any IQ.

[Kamchak]

Yeah, I kinda figured you'd be able to handle yourself there Cabby. Well done indeed.

Let the retort and comments about how the mods should coddle and not call people out commence.

[daeymien]

And anyone who ever played EQ will never forget how difficult it was, their first character, their first raid, etc. You can ask any old EQ player and they'll definitely remember EQ and wouldn't say EverWhat.

Don't forget the Spec trains in Oasis!...Which I'm guilty of spawning a few extra in strange places periodically when I used to work for SOE, just to give high levels that were power-leveling people something to deal with.

[cabby]

Or all those damn Bard trains in every zone because they didn't care with being able to out-run everything.

I'll admit I was guilty for a few of those.

[kinsten]

Have you ever spent 45 minutes running from one end of a continent to the other, then wait 30 minutes to take a boat to the next continent all the while praying to whatever god you want that you don't run into anything higher than 5 levels below you because you knew if you did you'd die and have to start the run all over again. Have you ever died in game and had to run naked all the way back to where you died hoping against hope that the creature that killed you was gone so you could get all your gear again?

You would actually play a game that would make you spend 45 minutes running then wait 30 minutes for a boat, how much will this increase my IQ? sign me up!

As I said, WoW is only good at one thing, making game play too easy. Anyone can log into WoW, faceroll their character up to 85 in a matter of days, and never have to think about what they did during that time or why. By making gaming this easy they are not forcing people to use their brains thereby lowering the IQ of those people. There is no real challenge to the game other than the previously mentioned minor PvP challenge.

You do realise that you're insulting everyone in this forum that enjoys WoW by saying their IQ is lower for playing right? I'm also starting to think you really believe that rather than a figure of speech which is disturbing.

Leveling a character to 85 is the introductory part of the game, level 85 end game content is where is at for the challenging aspect of the game, making it easy to level to 85 is good for subscribers. Blizzard is not going to invest all that time and money on end game content when players are struggling just to reach level 85,.

Is like you never played Cataclysm at all. Heroic Dungeons in Cataclysm is more difficult than WoTLK, there was a lot of complaints about it. CC is again a requirement for a successful dungeon run until you out geared it.

PvP and PvE raiding achievements mean absolutely nothing in the context of how easy the game play is. PvP only shows how well your character is equipped compared to someone else these days, and I don't normally PvP or play WoW that much anymore for that matter. PvE raiding stuff, well anyone can get be drug along on raids to get those without doing a damn thing and once again the raids rely on your gear and not your actual skill or intellect.

I am actually embarrass for you for this paragraph. Its obvious that you lack the experience of end game content and yet you pass judgement on something you know nothing about.

You have an elitist attitude on how you want WoW to be a challenge and yet you don't take on the challenge yourself and create excuses that its all gear.

Gladiators will faceroll you with honor gear.. and good PVE players will be able to complete the same dungeon or raid with less gear while you won't be able to complete it at all.

You can ask any old EQ player and they'll definitely remember EQ and wouldn't say EverWhat. You're either grasping at straws with that comment in an attempt to make some kind of point or you've never actually played EQ.

You misunderstood again, the problem is I can't find them because the game is not popular.

For how many subscribers they lost, I was just pointing out the benchmark they were setting. Name one other game that has lost 2 million subscribers in a year. Oh, and that 2 million subscribers was actually a 17% loss of customers. But let's look at this by the numbers. Let's say EQ had 450k subscribers compared to WoW at it's 12m. Now if EQ lost 17% that would be 76.5k lost and a revenue loss of $1,147,500 per month ($15/month subscription). For WoW at that same subscription price it's $30m per month lost. So maybe you'd prefer that instead of saying they're setting a benchmark on how many subscribers they can lose in a year I should say they're setting a benchmark on how much profit they can lose in a year? And I'm sure we all know that they'll continue to lose customers the easier they make the game play.

Now I don't hate WoW for dumbing down their game. Blizzard is free to do whatever they want with their product even if they are slowly shooting themselves in the foot in the process. My feelings for the path WoW is traveling has nothing to do with my support for Zygor and his guides.

They could have loss subscribers if they make the game harder to play.
They could have loss subscribers if they kept the game the way it was.

Where is your MMO ? where is your 10 millions subscribers? How do you know better than Blizzard?

Every decision that Blizzard make for WoW is an calculated decision based on facts and information that only Blizzard have..
Who else have 10 Million subs?
Who else have the most accurate information of what the market wants in an MMO other than Blizzard?

You have nothing but your personal opinions so lets not treat it as facts.

[Kamchak]

Where is your MMO ? where is your 10 millions subscribers? How do you know better than Blizzard?

That was a little to Shakespearean for me. All we need is a skull to complete the angry-drama fest.

nom nom nom nom.... (mods know what this is refering to)

[daeymien]

I'm bowing out of this thread before I start racking up warnings for pointing out glaring correlations.

Let me know how it turns out.

[kinsten]

And I'm not doing free tech support so I guess I haven't lost any IQ.

You're not fooling anyone, you don't even get the guides for free...

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[Kamchak]

NOM NOM NOM NOM....